In Conversation Transcript
(Thanks to Emily for typing this out for us)

I don't know if you've been asked before or if you have, but I wonder what the origin of the band name was? It's a really, *giggles* original name.

BC:Yeah, um, well, should I tell you the true story or should I make one up? It's all yours. You decide.

Do you want a cigarette, by the way?

BC:No. I don't smoke.

Um, yeah?

BC:No, I don't care, go ahead and smoke. Well the true story is there was no band; it didn't exist. I was telling people that I wanted to start a band, and at one time, I was telling a joke or something and said something about 'smashing pumpkins.' And later I thought, "Oh, that would be a good band name." So then when I was telling people I was forming a band, or I wanted to form a band, people would say, "Oh, well, what's gonna be the name of it?" and I would just say, "Oh, Smashing Pumpkins," as a joke. And then, um...

It kind of makes you laugh, actually. People who haven't heard anything.

BC:Oh, yeah, absolutely. And most people don't get it; the whole point of it is supposed to be like, THE Smashing Pumpkins. Like, ta-da, not. Everyone else looks at it that way. So next time I think we'll write 'the' just to fuck everyone out. Um, anyway, um, so I would just tell people, in passing, that I had started to form this band, and then people would come back up and say, "Oh, how's your band, The Smashing Pumpkins?" People were- well, people were remembering it, and I thought, "Well, that's good enough for me." And then, you just don't, when you're starting a band, you just don't think that for five years, you're gonna have to deal with it. "Why the fuck does he have this stupid name?!" Y'know?

It's something that's really stood out. That's just my, y'know.

BC:That was the other reason I decided to keep it, 'cause I, y'know, if you name yourself after any insect, or any , there's not many names that you could name yourself that wouldn't, that either don't sound like a band name... there was something about it that was enough of a band name sound and something that didn't sound like anything else. So...

Yeah, kind of a happy sound. Yeah, um, I played bass in a band last year, and it was called Kill David. I just couldn't stick with the name for so long.

BC:Yeah, well, right off the top of my head, there was, or there still is, a band called Head of David.

Yeah, and then there's Killing Job! Y'know?

BC:Right, see what I mean? So, how many bands are there out there? There's a band, Smashing Orange, but...

How did you go at Reading, 'cause I got down there on Sunday.

BC:Not good...

Do say, it was a British world to pick your full country to lights! [sorry, but i have no idea what's she's saying here...]

BC:Not good... Definitely like one of the biggest disappointments in my life.

Yeah, I think, like, PJ Harvey had a really bad time at Glastonbury. Y'know, festivals can sort of get on...

BC:Well, I mean, this is no one's fault, but first of all, you've got the pressure of playing in front of so many people, and when fifty-thousand people talk, you can definitely notice, so there's that pressure to really be good. And then, y'know, you don't get a soundcheck; you're walking onto a big, humonguous stage; you have people working there who don't normally work; your stuff, instead of being like ten feet away is twenty feet away, so it makes the sound different. And that's nobody's fault, but if you get used to working under similar conditions, it all gets thrown to the dogs.

Was this your first festival?

BC:No, we've played some others, and we had problems there, too.

Was that in the States, or...

BC:Oh no, we played a couple festivals in Belgium.

I think it's the sound there, 'cause the press makes so much of these festivals; and to be honest, with fifty-thousand kids there, usually there's not a good time. Everyone's really slated, and it's like, "Hang on! Everyone's having a good time here," and I think...

BC:Yeah, see, I mean, that's the thing that kind of made me mad is we didn't play really well, but to call us, the word that was used was "negligible," I think is completely unfair. I thought we did well under the circumstances, and to consider our band, it's like -- from nothing, from nowhere, y'know, we're not on some -- y'know, Sub-Pop bands have an advantage, and we're not on a major label here, and and all these other things, and it's like, but we've done pretty well, considering that.

I think there's such a fine line between what a lot of people believe the (performers?) were, and how much the (performers?) were actually trying to flaunt their careers. Y'know, once someone said to me, "Y'know, you've got to hate a band or like them, you can't stand on the fence." And that seems really unfair to me.

BC:It's like somebody asked me the other day, about the difference between public success and critical success. And, um, we've never had a problem, like, playing and having people enjoy our music and enjoying our shows. We're not the type of band that people associate with bad live performances or bad records. And I mean, considering the circumstances... But there's always been this really weird kind of like lack of critical support. Y'know, from the so-called people in the know.

I think they're looking for some sort of movement, and if they don't find it...

BC:I would definitely agree with that, and I think that because we belong to no movement, and we've always put ourselves in that position. And I mean, the closest comparison I can make in recent times was Jane's Addiction, [which] was a fairly big band. Or, just becoming a big band. You could find almost no press on them. You found no one writing that they were. And yet, a year later, they were headlining Lollapalooza, and they were definitely the reason the thing was selling out. Humonguous band, a band that people completely loved, blew everybody's mind, but yet... And y'know, what the thing is, twenty years from now, you'll be reading about who who said, "I saw them," and y'know, that's just how it goes. And I think it was probably that way with like the Velvet Underground? And other bands like that. So...

Yeah, I think there's quite a difference fanzines in the underground and the actual general press.

BC:I find the fanzines to be a lot more honest. Not as slanted.

I think they're directed, really, at the same age of the fans who actually enjoy the music.

BC:Yeah, that's the funny thing about fanzines, you're either praised or completely slagged, but it also depends on whoever's writing the fanzine and what their personal opinion is, because they surround themselves with people who... (mumbling). I don't know; you can cry and cry about it, and wished that everybody liked you, but it's like the same thing with life. I've always been the type of person that people either hated or liked, and it doesn't really surprise me.

That's okay, at least you know you're a good person.

BC:Well, that's what my mom says.

How much of the band -- I mean, do you get to see family? How well do you keep up with family?

BC:Oh, yeah, you know, you're home so little, it's just hard to explain, but it's like being in the circus or something. And then you go over to your mom's for dinner, and your mom goes, "So how's the circus?" You can't even explain...

She's got no conception of what you're talking about.

BC:Someone from the outside has a basic conception of what being in a rock band is like. But no one has any conception of just the constant sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll, stupidity, insults... you just, you can't -- can't explain it. It was really funny, because I went to go see U2, which in Chicago would attract a pretty normal audience. I hadn't seen them for a long time, so I wanted to go. I ran into this girl I'd gone to high school with, and I'd known through school years for like seven or eight years, and I saw her, and she says, "What have you been doing?" and I said, "Well, I play in this band," and she's like, "Oh yeah, I saw you in the newspaper." And then, I just tried to start explaining to her, to someone who has no idea, the band, or alternative music. You know, to them, 'alternative music' is not even a category. And I just realized it was completely hopeless. There was no way to explain to this person like, what my life, or what this is all about, I mean, this is sub-culture.

I was up in (city) with drama, 'cause I study drama, and most of my friends up there are into acting, and not really listening to a lot of music, and they had no idea what this music was really, and so, y'know, truth is, y'know, they just can't conceive it.

BC:Yeah, you can't even begin to explain it to someone.

To other people, it's just weird.

BC:And how it's so tied-in, it's culturally tied-in, too. It's not something that you just put on, take a bath. It becomes part of your existence.

You get kind of hooked on it. Did you guys have any college, or did you get to any university?

BC:I didn't go to college, no.

Did you have any, like, previous occupations, or... ?

BC:Well, I've only had two jobs, ever, besides being in a band. I used to deliver pizzas, that was one of 'em. That was kind of a cool job, because I had that when I was in high school. In between delivering pizzas, I would sit in the back and practice. So I practiced, y'know, four or five hours a day. It drove me crazy. And then, later on, I worked in a record store for a long time. Which was kinda crucial, too, in a strange way, because...

It would be really useful, wouldn't it?

BC:Well, the funny thing was, it wasn't a new music store, it was like a dusty thing, it was an old. So I came across all these singles and I was exposed to a lot of music that I didn't really...

I worked at a record and tape exchange in London. They've got like huge archives of stuff.

BC:...And to have access to that, to begin to find different genres of music, and find, "Oh, I like it," maybe that's, y'know. I mean, we've been accused of being, having a strange historical perspective, but that has a lot to do with because I had access to all that music. And most people who are poor aren't going to go buy every James Brown record or something. But I could get them.

It's kind of nice to be influenced by the times, by the alternative music of their times.

BC:Well, it's like some of the criticism about the UK is that a lot of the chewgazer bands and stuff, their history begins with My Bloody Valentine and stuff.

You have to see what's been thrown at them.

BC:Sometimes I think my historical perspective is almost like a curse in disguise. It opened me up to all different kinds of music, and it opened me up to be a lot more... diverse. But I know so much about past music, that I'll play something and go, "Oh, that sounds like..." and it'll be some song that no one even fucking knows, so... I fucked myself there.

Well, it's got to come from somewhere...

BC:Well, it's like my dad says, there's only twelve notes, and there's only so many ways to play them.


BC:I think that pretty much sums it up.

Actually, someone once said to me, there's only like...

BC:Something like five plots, right? Yeah, I've heard that, too. Something like five plots, yeah.

You know, what you want and what you get.

BC:What's the plot of life, y'know... Basically, love and attention. Avoidance of pain. It's pretty much what life comes down to! I eat so I won't get hungry, and I find someone so I won't be not loved, and *clap* there you go.

What really attracts you to songwriting?

BC:Um... it's becoming more so that, before I was...

It's like one time, the singer in our band, he was into centralizing in on his relationships. And that's freaky, actually, just realizing that he was singing about these people that we knew and...

BC:I'd say that I have a much more universally-tied viewpoint. I'm not just writing about me, I'm trying to comment about... y'know, there's basic truths in life, and things ring true to everyone.

Do you find yourself drawing on drugs, or bad experiences, to get like emotions?

BC:Drugs can definitely help just kind of pop the head open every once in awhile. I think drugs can be really good to lend a certain amount of... It's really very dangerous, but they add a certain amount of objectivity in your life. You can let go of your ego for a little while. And you can step back and realize how fucked-up you really are. And see, y'know... It's amazing how, this is personal, but, the older I get, I find myself getting conservative in a very natural kind of way.

That's funny about parents, y'know. We used to live abroad, and I saw them coming back from Hong Kong, and I saw some really scary changes in them.

BC:I think it's just a natural...

Just like when you calm down and realize that there's something, and you haven't got to impress a certain amount of people.

BC:Yeah, you know, you stop... When I was 19, I looked in the mirror like every bleeping second, and then you get older, and it's like, "Well, you know..."

I looked in the mirror yesterday!

BC:...And you start to think about cutting off all your hair, and...

That's just it, I mean, it was kind of sad, in a way, to me. Squashing ideals, but there you are. You see yourself in a suit and a tie!

BC:Well, no, no, but with me, it's just been, I don't feel like I ever had a proper childhood. And in some retarded way, this post-adolesence has kind of been like a reliving of my childhood. But at the same time, I'm getting older, and my mind and my body can't respond in some ways as much as it used to. I mean, like right now, I'm a complete psysical wreck. I have bruises like you wouldn't believe from diving in the crowds... I literally got my arm ripped off... I had to call a doctor... it's just ridiculous... and everywhere, it's just bruises, cuts; and I have to go to all these doctors... my wrists are fucked-up...

Did you move around a lot when you were younger?

BC:No, not really. But there was a certain transience because my father was a musician. He was always gone. And my mother was a stewardess and she was always gone. So even though we weren't moving, there was never any solidity.

It wasn't easy...

BC:And it's really that kind of nomadic feeling that's kind of followed me around. Even though I have an apartment and everything, I don't really feel at home. I refuse to accept any place as my home.

I feel the same, 'cause I've kind of moved around all the way. I really can't accept anywhere as somewhere to settle down, and that's what home means.

BC:I think it's really an essential thing. That's kind of weird, because...

But you kind of get that worldly perspective, so there are advantages. Some people, everywhere they been has been like their room or something.

BC:You understand, there's a good and bad to everything. There's a freedom you can attain, by having a career like this, by having money enough to travel and do things. But you lose something equally as valuable as sitting in your backyard playing with your dog. There's a validity to everything. And this is kind of going backwords, but that's kind of where I think drugs have kind of helped me attain a more universal perspective. You realize that what's right for one person isn't right for another. And that's what's been really hard with me to deal with specific criticisms about the band because-

How do you define the band? I mean, does having the band around you sort of...

BC:That's a really difficult question at this point. It's -- I would use the word 'family.' But like a family, what those people really mean and what their true roles in life really begin to blur, because you so accept them into your existence, and they become such a part, that... ...You don't think of them as people anymore? There's like no true definitions as to what you feel about them anymore. And you really start to lose perspective. I think that with us more than anything, the band's just, at the moment, completely lost perspective about what this is all about and why we're doing it and why we even bother.

Is that just too much touring, then, now, you know? 'Cause sometimes you can get really tired of that and you just want to relax.

BC:I think it's also we just... the choice between... I mean, y'know, like my wrist is completely fucked-up. If I went to the doctor and the doctor said, "You're going to have to have surgery on your wrist, or your wrist is going to be really fucked-up when you get older. You'll have to not play for six months." I would choose not to have surgery.

'Cause it means so much, yeah...

BC:Because I would rather live like a fucking maniac for five years and then fuck the rest of my life. That's just the way I feel.

'Cause you're young. It's like that time. So few older rock stars have any respect in the music world.

BC:I feel I've wasted so many years, I've wasted so many years of my life already, just fucking off.

No, then again, there are people like Nick Cave who are still going strong.

BC:You know, sometimes with people like that, I really question if the talent comes through. It's hard for me to deal with people who aren't pushing themselves to that. Like someone like Tom Waites, to me, is someone who consistently pushes himself to an absolute artistic limit. Someone like Andrew Eldridge, y'know, what brillance had existed is long lost in some... haze.

How much do you really attach to the image-thing, 'cause there's so many bands rely on their image so solely for about five years, and when fashions change, they're chucked.

BC:From a completely, I don't mean to sound so clinical and calculated, from a completely business perspective, bands that have a very specific image do better. Because, and I mean, there are exceptions, y'know, of bands that don't have any image and manage to sell lots of records, but for the most part, when it comes to rock, people like to attach the music and the moment and the image and it all sort of comes together and makes sense. Duran Duran's a perfect example, y'know? *laughter* People have asked us about the image of the band, and we just laugh because the image is just the image of people, y'know. We are what we are.

So much of the image has not really changed since the '60's. I think people are looking for some kind of... punk-thing.

BC:People keep thinking that the musical revolution or whatever that's going on now is some reaction against an establishment. It's exactly the opposite. It's a reaction against the way that people feel. It's not and us vs. them attitude; it's an us vs. us. People are completely uncomfortable with their person and lives and they're unhappy.

People aren't as politically-minded as they were a few years ago. People here are now more conservative.

BC:At least now, they want change. But people are so... burnt-out by the political process and we just hear the same things over and over.

Yeah, I just keep thinking in terms of Britain.

BC:No, it's fine.

How do you find, compare American culture to British culture? They're probably different.

BC:I don't know; it's hard for me to say. The reaction seems the same. But I seem to understand it much better when we're in America because, you know, I'm not so far from them in the same kind of sentiments. I don't know what drives, you know, the 16-year-old British teenager. What I understand what drives--

What kind of fan mail, or fans do you get? Do you get any really weird requests?

BC:We get some really weird, y'know. People write me from the insane asylums. D'Arcy gets all sorts of strange mail, 'cause she's a girl. "I love you." You know, I get weird shit like 14-year-old girls write me poetry, girls send me pictures- their modelling pictures.

Do you ever respond to any of the letters?

BC:I do, sometimes. Mostly- mostly because I just want to... People build this thing, y'know, I did it when I was young, they build someone that they listen to or see up into some superhuman. Sometimes I write and just try to show them that I'm... I'm just as, y'know. And I think that a little bit of humility and a little bit of humanity when it comes to things like that. I think that's a lot more inspirational. I meet people and they say, "I can't believe you're so nice!" It's like...

"Well, what did you expect?"

BC:I know! But see, some people have in their mind that; they have a preconceived notion that they have this rock-star thing.

Yeah, a lot of people have the idea that when bands get successful, they're really complacent and really...

BC:Yeah, well... hmm, we have our moments... I mean, we're not even that successful. I can't imagine what drives someone like, you know, R.E.M. or somebody. I mean, you got everything you ever wanted, you got gold records, money, cars... I hope, maybe, at that point it just becomes a purely artistic endeavor.

What was your attitude towards labels? You know, some bands are just adamant they'll stick with small labels, independent labels.

BC:My attitude has always been whatever's best for us. You know, I didn't care... I mean, y'know, perfect example: We're signed to Virgin Worldwide, and we're on Hut in the U.K.

Do you read much? What kind of literature do you enjoy?

BC:I read a lot when I'm at home; William Burroughs is definitely the main.

Do you take any of this stuff, the books you read, and put it into songs?

BC:No... Well, it just goes back to the basic idea that there's certain things that, to me, make sense. A lot of times, all I'm doing is reaffirming what I already believe in. There's not many new ideas. *snap!* It's a weird thing to talk about, y'know?

Do the rest of the band write songs, contribute, or is it just you?

BC:Not really... Very little. Even right now, there's two things we're playing that James -- it'll be something along the lines that like James'll come up with a part, and I'll turn it into a song. The songs are usually mine.

Do you associate much with them; do you hang around much with them?

BC:Yeah, you can't help but not to, there's just so much shit you gotta do. We've gone to like practicing every day, so we see each other almost every day.

What about the rest of the Americans, I know you don't like so much grunge, but kind of a lot of the Sub-Pop-y bands, do you see much of them?

BC:No. You get to know people, you know. And when they come to town, you go to see them. You know, like, y'know, Ted, Afghan Whigs, Nirvana we know... there's tons of bands we know... and we go see 'em.

Yeah, I expected Nirvana at Reading and it was really sad to hear Kurt had gone that bad. Courtney was really slated, y'know... (mumbling)

BC:Yeah, but she's also set herself up for that. Yeah, you know, I went out with Courtney, I know her very well. She's put herself in this... See, and the shame of it to me is that she's an immensely talented person.

...And she should just get out there and... See, I remember reading reviews, and y'know, Hole was getting kind of to this peak. And, y'know, they just kind of carried on.

BC:What's on the first Hole album, if she ever makes another album, she'll put that one into the dust. She has that much talent. She's really, like, uh, her own kind of genius, in a strange kind of way. But the thing is, she set herself up in this position... You know, she's signed to Geffen, which is Nirvana's label, so everyone's going to perceive that as that.

Yeah, I remember running around the office, and everyone was calling Courtney some kind of gold-digger... She's gone to Geffen.

BC:Yeah, and that's what everyone... Even if those things aren't true.

It's what it looks like, you know.

BC:It's guilt by association, unfortunately. And I really think the shame of it all is she's put herself in this position, and she's said these ridiculously stupid things that she never should have admitted to in public. And she's put herself in a position of like, no win. People won't let her win. They'll always try to bring her down and she's given them ammunition to do that.

I mean, the press is there to write. You can manipulate them to a certain extent, but when you want to publicize yourself, you can either do well or...

BC:Well, you know, when she admits fucking, y'know, shooting smack while pregnant, people aren't going to let you forget that. And some of the movements in America that have a lot of strength and power, especially on an artistic level, like you know, the feminist movement, they're not going to want anything to do with her. I think it's an awful, terrible shame; I really do. Because ultimately the sacrifice of it all is going to be the art and the music that she could make.

I really think it's a shame. It's just, y'know, too bad. I mean, it's a shame. Hmm... I wondered if you guys had any time to get away? What kind of holiday would you want? What's your ideal for a holiday?

BC:I don't, I can't. My brain is... no matter where I go...

...It's centered on work...

BC:Not centered... I was just born fucked and I'll always be fucked.

Do you make plans to go travelling, though, do you kinda-sorta... tell myself to relax somewhat?

BC:I think about it. I'm scared of being alone.

Yeah, to be honest, I like a little peace and quiet sometimes, but I have to have people around me.

BC:I really enjoy peace and quiet when I know somebody's in the next room.

Yeah, I understand you, it's weird. It's really good sitting in places like cafes; not pubs, but cafes.

BC:Everything about life makes me lonely. *laughs* Even playing gigs.

What with all those fans, you know...

BC:It doesn't make any difference.

I suppose a lot of people must go through that kind of... They don't know you; it's just not a very personal thing to be playing in front of them.

BC:No, I don't feel that way, but I... it doesn't really change the way I feel about myself.

Do you find yourself closer to your parents now?

BC:No, not really. I'm a man without... well, I shouldn't say 'man.' I'm a BOY without faith, religion, hope...

Oh no! It sounds drastic! Do you ever envision a family for yourself in the future? I guess that could change things.

BC:Yeah, I just don't know when. I just don't know why anybody would want to share this life; it's an awful life to live.

Well, I suppose fellow musicians would be used to it.

BC:I tried that one, but she married someone famous. *laughter*

Do you have much time to dwell on relationships, really?

BC:Yeah, I don't... I think picking fruit from the trees is not living. It's the interaction of people. I think conversation is good, is the ultimate expression in life. I mean, you can create art, and you can do permanent things; but ultimately, what will change you the most, what will have the most effect on you is what goes on every day.

Do you feel really uncertain about the future?

BC:Absolutely. Not so much... I don't doubt my ability, and I don't doubt my...

How does it seem now, just from like personal things? I feel really, really uncertain; I'd love to just go... ...journalism in the face, and then get a little acting, and stage design... *laughter* But, y'know, when you started out with the band, was that very scary, or was it... do you feel comfortable with the band?

BC:Best way I can explain it is when you don't have anything, you deal with the concept of just trying to have something. And then you work and you work and you work until you see this kind of fine-point... "I can acheive that."

Yeah, and you've also gotten where you wanted, eventually.

BC:But, I don't want this to sound pompous in any way, but some point you pass a line and you realize that the possibilities and the opportunities are endless. That you could pretty much go about as far as you wanted to go. You realize that you have something. That will always be present. I mean, that does not go away. There's a quality of something that's... So it becomes... the game doesn't become just creating; the game becomes how good, how far, how big.

But see, if you talk about talent now, how do you know that you have the confidence to sing? Were you taught to sing, or...

BC:I tell myself that I was... I don't know. It was a different kind of confidence. It's not a confidence that most people would understand. I attribute it almost to, like, a spiritual thing. You peer in and you see what God has given you. And you realize the limitations and the possibilities that you have. I feel I've been given some really tremendous gifts; and I'm such a fuck-up that it's the only thing that's keeping me from getting at them.

You don't seem to be doing so badly at the moment. You've got some good stuff out there... it really couldn't... It's doing well in the midst of so much attention on a certain 'grunge' aspect.

BC:I believe that we're just... You know, we're like the horse that runs on the outside; that's all.

I'm nervous that you could yell at me now, but I see that something you talk about is something similar to the Doors. I wonder if anyone's ever mentioned that?


I thought the stuff that Jim Morrison came out with was very...

BC:I could relate to that, in the most basic of ways. It's the same idea that, y'know, there's the play that you think is going on and then there's the real play. When I watch a puppet show, I don't watch the puppets; I try to see who's holding the strings. That's the way that I feel. That's what life is about. It's not about what you see; there's a sub-text and something hidden with just about everything. It's like when you meet someone new. What goes on and the way they behave with you may have nothing to do with you. You're just another...

I always find it funny, it's difficult, sometimes, to meet people, and you're not talking this morning, and you're not connecting at all on kind of a level.

BC:It's somewhat of an artificial thing.

I mean, it's practically, actually... credibility you do with interviewing people. To a certain extent, it's all part of the business of publicity.

BC:I've been trying to think of it like that.

It gets kind of cold if you do. I'm always like that.

BC:I'll end up like him: Fat and dead.

No, but he, he was so dark...

BC:I don't think he was that dark.

I read a lot of stuff on him, and it was... People really underrated him.

BC:I really don't think he fulfilled his artistic promise. The first Doors album is really outstanding, and then the vision after that was kind of... really not as strong.

And the stuff he did at film school, was really... I think at that stage, he was still...

BC:Sometimes I tell my friends, "Once you figure out the game, you can't help but... it changes you or something." And that's what I feel like.

It makes you more cynical.

BC:I don't know if it makes you more cynical. From the time you're born 'til you're eighteen years old or whatever, you're made to believe, and not necessarily under false pretenses, that there's a construct to society, and a way of doing things, and a way to live. And slowly but surely, some people just fucking go out and pop off, 'cause they don't care. Me, I've... It's been something I've approached inch by inch. It's taken me a long time. The first thing was like, okay, my hair, the way I dress. But deep down, it's not that I believe in alternative lifestyle, but I truly wasn't living my own vision of my life.

So, do you still have something that you're working towards?

BC:Oh, absolutely. I used to think of, the younger version of me, used to think of, y'know, like a junkie was like an idiot. And the mentally ill as like somehow like subpar. As I've gotten older, I've realized that people who let themselves go are really only responding to the voices that everyone hears. And once you strip down the barriers and the chains that really hold you to this idea, this conception of our life in its proper, moralistic way, then you... everyone really changes. I don't know if I'm a whore because I was born a whore or I just don't believe in morality, y'know. I'm not sure where it begins and ends.

Yeah, I think he's got this right to say, "This is right, this is wrong." Did you say you were religious or not? Do you meditate or anything like that?

BC:I just try to meditate, but I just don't have the patience.

*laughter* 'Cause you haven't got enough time?

BC:Yeah. It's like, my mind is... that's definitely... Like, my way of meditating is like taking a walk. And I count to four over and over. Wait for my mind to clear. I've been doing this exercise where where you get up in the morning and you write three pages, no matter what it's about. I just write "I'm a loser" a hundred times or something. *laughter* The idea is to like drain your head of whatever crap is in there.

Yeah, when I used to write, I really had to write in my diary every night, and got into analyzing things too much, and I saw too much into situations, so I stopped writing it. Okay, I took things on too much of a surface element. I just kind of existed from day to day. I don't know which is worse, to be honest.

BC:I see it as like the last attempt at holding onto sanity. You get to the point where your own monsters in your head are so immense that you're completely immobile. You can't do anything. When you're an artist, if you can't work, then you are nothing!

It's funny, though, I mean, so many people, I think, do it. Do good through that sort of thing. It's funny how you can be completely down one minute and completely high the next. Somebody could say something, or you just go outside, and it's something different.

BC:That's me! I've painted a pathetic picture of myself.

I think a lot of people kind of do that to me. I used to get really down, fourteen, fifteen; move to another school and have to makes new friends. I've talked to friends... and a lot of people do the same thing.

BC:Life is fucked...

I think as long as you have a dog, you're all right. *laughter*

BC:I've got a cat. Cats I can deal with better.

Where have you got a cat?

BC:What have I got a cat? At home. See, you've got to do laundry. If you don't do laundry, you don't smell good. *laughter*

I know, 'cause we had a really useless washing machine last year. We took to washing things in the bath, or...

BC:Well, I've been in Europe for a month, and I haven't done one laundry load. So, Lord knows where this shirt's been, but... It could crawl on its own fibers... *laughter* That's right. But then we can smell you when you're onstage.

You've got a right to be sweating, then. Do you get a lot of adrenaline going before the gig, or...

BC:Sometimes. It's been hard on this tour because I don't feel like we're here for any reason except to sell more records. That's not the best feeling to have.

How long you gonna be touring?

BC:This is it!

Last gig?

BC:Yep, we're here to play our last gig of 1992.

Oh! Cool.

BC:I get to use that to motivate myself.

And then what now? Back into the studio?

BC:Make that second.

What do you prefer, being in the studio or being in the public eye?

BC:Sleeping? *laughter*

Yeah, that would be nice!

BC:That's number one. Then there's laying down, and that's number two.

Do you find it frustrating to sit and write?

BC:It's either/or. It's really exhilerating or it's horrible. To have a piece of your mind, has to be in it. I rest because things have to motivate you, but you have to have some sense of order and then... if you're schizophrenic...

It's not difficult really, I hear. You're writing now. Lots of songs. [not sure... not sure what she says half the time, i apologize.]

BC:I did this really good exercise. With this writing thing I've been doing. they tell you to write ten positive things about yourself, and then whatever comes in your head. So, y'know, you write "I, Billy Corgan, am a great artist." The first thing that pops in your head is "You're terrible, you're awful, you're rotten! You suck."

But it's got to be good with the bad, y'know.

BC:Yeah, but I'm saying those voices are pretty loud.

I have a lot of respect for artists because they're making lots of other people happy. You get nurses and doctors who do it sort of psysically.

BC:Yeah, that's all fine and good, but ultimately they're all just selfish people who only want for themselves. *laughs*

Yeah, but if they want, if they feel... they're still producing the music that makes people happy when they're also happy themselves. Which is also a good thing.

BC:I wouldn't trust an artist as far as I could throw. *laughter*

What about painting, jewelry, and stuff? Do you do that?

BC:I try. Music I can do. Other things I can't; I feel stilted by knowing, y'know, you shouldn't think that way, it's the wrong way to think. Art is art, whether it's good or bad. Expression is just where you worry about expressing, not how well it's going to be received or how it stands up to Salvador Dali. *laughter*

Yeah, an example would be that it stopped people from getting degrees in Rock 'N' Roll Music. I just think really crazy. But I suppose it's going to happen eventually. Where do you see yourselves in, say, thirty years time, or is that too scary?

BC:What, the band, or me?

You! I don't know, you, or maybe the band...

BC:The band will be long gone. Me? That would make me 55 years old. I don't have a lot of confidence in my ability to live. At this point in my life, I'd say I'd be dead. *laughter*

How're you going to do this?

BC:Nah... I'm more a wrist-slitter.

We had this English teacher once, and we did this kind of project on death. She said, "If you wanted to kill me, how would you kill me?" We had a class killing a teacher... We quickly decided, in unison, that she should be thrown out the window. That would be bad; it was weird. We had to write a story on killing a teacher.

BC:It's like, when you get really depressed, death kind of takes on a romantic... you know, it's the equivalent of the Hawaiian getaway. *laughter*

You know, they go about, death by drowning, and hallucinogenic abuses, but...

BC:I'm not that bad. I wouldn't care... why hallucinate while dying?! If you could die in some act of passion, that would be my number one choice. *laughter*

Yeah, that would be cool. Do you believe in afterlife-something, so? Reincarnation or something?

BC:Yeah. I definitely believe there's a lot of stuff that goes on, and we don't even... can't begin to understand. A lot of it's just beyond our conception.

Electric fields...

BC:Who knows? Do we really care... not really. It's just an excuse to be good or bad. Some use it as an excuse to be good so they won't get punished later, and some use it as an excuse to be bad, because it doesn't matter; they're coming back anyway.

I'd like to be a dog.

BC:I'd like to come back as... a turnip.

A turnip? *laughter* That's pretty close to a pumpkin.

BC:I can't top that. *laughter*

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